"To be yourself in a world that
is constantly trying to make you something
else is the greatest accomplishment."
--Ralph
Waldo Emerson
"You introduced me to my own kind,
and just in time too!
I was almost positive that I was going to need
Prozac or Zoloft
to cure my 'social disorder.'"
--a
17-year-old high school senior
A conversation with Jonathan Rauch, the author who—thanks
to an astonishingly popular essay in the March 2003 Atlantic—may
have unwittingly touched off an Introverts' Rights revolution
by Sage Stossel
Introverts of the World, Unite!
Most magazine articles do not, as a general rule, inspire impassioned
responses. But in 2003, when The Atlantic published a short essay
by correspondent Jonathan Rauch on the trials of introversion
in an extroverts' world, the reaction was overwhelming. Rauch
was inundated with more enthusiastic mail about the piece than
for anything else he'd ever written. And on The Atlantic's Web
site, it drew (and has continued to draw) more traffic than any
other piece we've posted.
"I am an introvert," Rauch declared in the piece. And
as such, he contended, he is a member of one of the "most
misunderstood and aggrieved groups in America, possibly the world."
By definition, he explained, introverts are those who find other
people's company tiring. Yet the uncomprehending extrovert majority
imposes its own gregarious expectations on extroverts and introverts
alike—compelling incessant socializing, enthusiastic party-going,
and easy shooting of the breeze as norms. Introverts, Rauch pointed
out—though an oppressed minority—comprise a significant
portion of the population. Their quiet, introspective ways, he
argued, should therefore be viewed not as a deviation from standard,
but as a different kind of normal.
He addressed extroverts, admonishing them to be more sensitive
to their introvert peers: after all, "someone you know, respect,
and interact with every day," he explained, "is an introvert,
and you are probably driving this person nuts." As for introverts,
he wrote, "we can only dream that someday, when our condition
is more widely understood, when perhaps an Introverts' Rights
movement has blossomed and borne fruit, it will not be impolite
to say, 'I'm an introvert.... Now please shush.'"
If the groundswell of support for these sentiments is any indication,
Rauch may soon find himself the unwitting figurehead for an Introverts'
Rights Revolution. We decided to have a few words with this author,
who has clearly tapped into something important.
Did anything in particular inspire you to write an article
about this? An especially trying plane ride seated next to an
extrovert, for example?
I don't think it was any specific incident. The idea was rolling
around in my head for a while. To some extent, it was the result
of being partnered with an extrovert and realizing that this was
a daily source of tension. So I started organizing my thoughts
on the subject. Another motivation was, basically, that I thought
it would be funny.
It's interesting that you've found it a source of tension
to be paired with an extrovert. I've read that introvert-extrovert
pairings work well because the person who doesn't like to make
small talk can just let the other person do it for them.
That's true. It does work very well in some situations. But for
an introvert it also makes for a constant—I guess you might
call it "brain pressure." That's a better phrase than
"tension," because tension implies conflict and it's
not that. It's just that my partner Michael's default mode of
being is to talk and interact all the time, whereas mine is to
talk as little as possible. We've been together since 1996 and
we've spent much of that time just learning how not to drive each
other completely insane. Part of my motivation for writing this
piece was to pass along some of what I've learned. I was also
hoping Michael would read it, which he did.
Did it help?
By the time the piece was published he'd probably heard it all
from me before. But it doesn't hurt to go on the record.
If he were a writer he could do the companion piece—"How
to Care for Your Extrovert."
Exactly. But of course my view, as I say in the article, is that
it's much easier for introverts to understand these things than
extroverts. Extroverts really have a hard time "getting"
it. And even when they do get it, they still have a hard time
modifying their behavior.
You wrote that for a long time you didn't even realize you
were an introvert. What caused it to finally dawn on you?
From about the age of eighteen or nineteen, when I went to college,
I realized that it was just not my idea of fun to party. In fact,
I couldn't see why anyone would want to—I get so monumentally
bored at parties. So I realized that I had this fundamental difference
with a lot of other people. I didn't put a name on it until a
few years ago when a friend of mine, who reads a lot of Jung,
informed me that he's an introvert and that, "by the way,
Jonathan, you're an introvert, too." He explained what that
means and suddenly a lightbulb went on and things fell into place.
Now that you're tuned into it, can you usually tell when
you meet someone whether or not they're also an introvert?
No. There's no introvert "gay-dar" that I can tell.
One reason is that a lot of introverts are actually very good
at being social. It just takes a lot of work for them. I'm like
that. I'm not great at small talk, but I can seem quite outgoing
for spells of up to an hour or so before I completely run out
of gas. So I have to kind of get to know someone before I can
figure out whether they're an introvert. Not that it takes all
that much getting to know. If you notice that someone's getting
tired out by a long conversation, they're probably an introvert.
But it's not a first impression kind of thing.
I was surprised to read in your article that it's not typical
for introverts to also be anxious or shy in social settings, because
I'm both.
I was wondering whether you were an introvert. When did you realize
that about yourself?
I'm not sure. I guess it probably hit me in seventh grade
when somebody told my older brother, "You know, Sage could
be popular if she talked more." Of course, he reported this
to me, and I started to brood over it.
That is so unjust. Isn't it?
Yeah—chattiness suddenly seemed like the key to social
success and happiness.
That story so sums up the kind of extrovert hegemony that can
make life miserable. I think it's particularly hard for girls
and women. "You'd be so much more popular if you'd talk more."
It seems to me that the world would be a much better place, and
that people would be much more rightly popular, if they talked
less. Because so little of what most people say is actually worth
hearing.
True. Although sometimes it's interesting to listen to other
people talk. It's too bad it's not more acceptable to go to a
party and just kind of soak things up.
Yeah. They should sell skybox seats at parties for people like
us.
You asked about shyness versus introversion. My limited reading
on the subject suggests that, psychologically speaking, they're
regarded as different things. That reflects my own experience;
I'm not particularly shy myself. To me, shyness implies a real
reluctance to be socially aggressive or assertive. It's very difficult
for shy people to put themselves out there if they need to. For
introverts, it's never easy to do, but it's more a matter of reluctance
to expend the energy, because it tires us out. That's what I feel
most strongly. If I have to go to a party and then a dinner afterwards,
I'm completely ruined for the evening. But if I'm called upon
to run a business meeting or something, I don't feel any reluctance
or anxiety about it. So, in my mind there's always been a fairly
clear distinction between introversion and shyness.
You also mention in the article that studies have shown that
introverts process information differently from other people.
Yeah, that's something I read back when I was reporting the piece.
I can't remember the details now, but it involved brain scans.
It sounds right to me that the process is different. When
there's a conversation flowing around me and everyone else is
so quick with their responses, I almost imagine that other people's
brains are endowed with some kind of fast-acting comment-generating
engine.
Yeah, I marvel at Michael who can always somehow turn the conversation
right over effortlessly and keep it going even when what he says
is not necessarily profound or interesting. What he comes up with
is perfectly tuned to the sense and flow of the conversation.
But it's not words that are particularly intended to convey ideas
or mean things. It's words that socialize—that simply continue
the conversation. It's chit-chat. I have no gift for that. I have
to think about what to say next, and sometimes I can't think fast
enough and end up saying something stupid. Or sometimes I just
come up dry and the conversation kind of ends for while until
I can think of another topic. This is why it's work for me. It
takes positive cognition on my part. I think that's probably a
core introvert characteristic that you and I have in common and
which can probably be distinguished from shyness per se—that
small talk takes conscious effort and is very hard work. There's
nothing small about small talk if you're an introvert. But we're
good at big talk. Are you good at big talk?
If I get onto a topic I'm interested in and feel strongly
about then it's true that I can get animated and engaged. But
I'm not so good at chatting about things like the weather.
Right. The weather's not interesting. But once an introvert gets
on a subject that they know about or care about or that intrigues
them intellectually, the opposite often takes hold. They get passionately
engaged and turned on by the conversation. But it's not socializing
that's going on there. It's learning or teaching or analyzing,
which involves, I'm convinced, a whole different part of the brain
from the socializing part.
Do you ever wish you were an extrovert?
Not really. That may be because my "faking it" skills
are pretty good. But I do think a lot of us are tired of being
told that there's something wrong with us—of this lazy assumption
that if you're not an extrovert, there's something wrong with
you. I think my article may speak to people in part because of
its defiant message. It says, "No, I don't wish to be an
extrovert. Not everyone has to be one. And why don't you people
get it?"
Your article made me think of that book The Lonely Crowd
by David Riesman from the 1950s. He argued that the dominant economic
model of each era in a sense "creates"—or privileges—the
character type that's best suited to it. So, for example, in the
agricultural and industrial eras, what he called the "inner-directed"
type was best suited to getting work done and transmitting certain
moral and cultural values. And then, with the rise of a more consumer-oriented
economy, it became beneficial for people to be gregarious and
affable. So teachers started to care more about whether their
students were popular and cooperative than if they were interested
in the subject matter and doing well academically.
I've never thought about it in those terms. It's true that in
a lot of the social jobs that require leadership—whether
in politics or in corporations—being energized by dealing
with people all day long is a plus. And it's also probably true
that, in an urban corporate economic structure, those skills are
more important than in a rural peasant economy. But I wouldn't
say that it changes the character of the people particularly.
I do think that there's been, in the last ten years or so, a major
economic resurgence for introversion—the "geek"
economy. The prototypical geek is really good at thinking, has
superb powers of concentration (which tends to be an introvert
trait), and works very well independently. They're often pretty
awesomely brilliant people, and they're fairly defiant about being
geeks. They've turned this word "geek" into a term that's
almost romantic in some ways, and through the Silicon economy,
they've been massively innovative and economically important.
A lot of them are running circles around the extroverts who are
selling shoes. So I think part of what's happened lately is that
the digital economy is giving introverts a new place in the sun.
You've gotten more reader response to this article than for
anything else you've written. What do you think accounts for that?
Well, I can tell you that I never saw it coming. I thought I
wrote this almost for my own fun and so that I would have something
to hand people to get them to understand. Part of the problem
with being an introvert is that it's hard to explain yourself.
You can't say to your friends, "Hey guys, I'm an introvert,"
and have them know how to deal with you. So I thought it would
be pretty darn handy to have something on paper.
Then I got this overwhelming reaction in the mail. It's been
a bigger reaction than to anything else I've written. I think
it suggests that a lot of people have the same experiences you
and I do, and that they haven't had a name for it or a way of
understanding it. Having that is very valuable. It tells you how
to understand yourself and—maybe even more importantly—it
tells you that you're fine and that, in fact, a lot of the problem
is with the rest of the world.
People really do seem to be having a real "eureka"
reaction to this. At some level, it reminds me of what it's like
to discover that you're gay. Obviously there's no structural similarity
between introversion and homosexuality, but there is this sense
of realizing that you're different in a way that's very meaningful.
Understanding introversion as a concept kind of makes the pieces
fit together. A number of people have told me that they've Xeroxed
the article and given it to their friends, their families, their
significant others, and so on, as a communication device.
You jokingly talk about an Introverts' Rights Movement. It
seems as though, given the dramatic response to this article,
there must be a lot of people out there who are just now realizing
that they're introverts and that the dominant culture doesn't
really take their characteristics into account in terms of what
it expects of them.
Well, that's exactly right. Part of the thrill of this article
is that it seems to be helping introverts discover each other.
It never occurred to me when I wrote it that there would be so
many other people out there with whom this would resonate so strongly.
But one of the main points I see over and over again in the mail
I've been getting is, "I'm not alone! There are others like
me." This sense of empowerment because of not being alone
is very important to people. That in itself, to the extent that
that takes hold, would be a very important part of correcting
the introvert/extrovert imbalance.
Your article has also been one of the most popular pages
on our Web site. We posted it three years ago, and it still gets
more hits than practically anything else on the site.
Yes. The Internet is the perfect medium for introverts. You could
almost call it the Intronet. You know the old New Yorker cartoon
with a dog sitting at a computer saying to another dog, "On
the Internet, no one knows you're a dog." Well, on the Internet,
no one knows you're an introvert. So it's kind of a natural that
when The Atlantic put this piece online, introverts beat a path
to it; it's the ideal distribution mechanism by which introverts
can reach other introverts and spread the word.
Are you aware of anybody else writing about these things
today?
I'm not. Some people who wrote in sent me some of their own writings
on the subject. But if there are other articles I haven't seen
them. We'll see over time.
So if you were to spearhead an Introverts' Rights movement
what would be some of the things you'd advocate?
Massive subsidies. I think people like us should have twice as
much Social Security.
I like that.
Yeah that's pretty good.
Maybe Greta Garbo could be the mascot.
Good idea. Though she may have just been shy. Did she really
say, "I vant to be alone"?
That's what I've heard.
I think that was a line from her movie The Grand Hotel, though,
in which case it was just her character who said that. But she
could still be the patron saint. Actually, my favorite line is
from Waiting for Godot. I can quote it to you exactly: "Don't
talk to me. Don't speak to me. Stay with me."
That's perfect.
To me those words sum up the introvert impulse. We love people—we're
not misanthropic for the most part. We just can't socialize with
them all the time. We want to hold their hand or hug them or just
sit quietly and read a book with them.
I was tongue-in-cheek about the introverts' rights movement,
but the main principle would just be that it should be as respectable
for introverts to be who they are socially as it is for extroverts.
We ought to be trying to make extroverts conscious and not uncomfortable
about the fact that we're here. Extroverts should understand that
if someone is being quiet it doesn't mean they're having a bad
time; it doesn't mean they're depressed; it doesn't mean they're
lonely or need psychiatric help or medication. A lot of the battle
is making the extrovert world more aware. The onus is on us to
do that. Maybe this article is a start. One thing you'll notice
about the article, by the way, is that it addresses extroverts.
I think that's very much the strategy; we need to tell the world
who we are. The first step is to understand who we are ourselves,
but the second step is to educate extroverts. This is stuff extroverts
need to know. They're driving us crazy. We need to tell them.
Do you know someone who needs hours alone every day? Who loves
quiet conversations about feelings or ideas, and can give a dynamite
presentation to a big audience, but seems awkward in groups and
maladroit at small talk? Who has to be dragged to parties and
then needs the rest of the day to recuperate? Who growls or scowls
or grunts or winces when accosted with pleasantries by people
who are just trying to be nice?
If so, do you tell this person he is "too serious,"
or ask if he is okay? Regard him as aloof, arrogant, rude? Redouble
your efforts to draw him out?
If you answered yes to these questions, chances are that you
have an introvert on your hands—and that you aren't caring
for him properly. Science has learned a good deal in recent years
about the habits and requirements of introverts. It has even learned,
by means of brain scans, that introverts process information differently
from other people (I am not making this up). If you are behind
the curve on this important matter, be reassured that you are
not alone. Introverts may be common, but they are also among the
most misunderstood and aggrieved groups in America, possibly the
world.
I know. My name is Jonathan, and I am an introvert.
Oh, for years I denied it. After all, I have good social skills.
I am not morose or misanthropic. Usually. I am far from shy. I
love long conversations that explore intimate thoughts or passionate
interests. But at last I have self-identified and come out to
my friends and colleagues. In doing so, I have found myself liberated
from any number of damaging misconceptions and stereotypes. Now
I am here to tell you what you need to know in order to respond
sensitively and supportively to your own introverted family members,
friends, and colleagues. Remember, someone you know, respect,
and interact with every day is an introvert, and you are probably
driving this person nuts. It pays to learn the warning signs.
What is introversion? In its modern sense, the concept goes back
to the 1920s and the psychologist Carl Jung. Today it is a mainstay
of personality tests, including the widely used Myers-Briggs Type
Indicator. Introverts are not necessarily shy. Shy people are
anxious or frightened or self-excoriating in social settings;
introverts generally are not. Introverts are also not misanthropic,
though some of us do go along with Sartre as far as to say "Hell
is other people at breakfast." Rather, introverts are people
who find other people tiring.
Extroverts are energized by people, and wilt or fade when alone.
They often seem bored by themselves, in both senses of the expression.
Leave an extrovert alone for two minutes and he will reach for
his cell phone. In contrast, after an hour or two of being socially
"on," we introverts need to turn off and recharge. My
own formula is roughly two hours alone for every hour of socializing.
This isn't antisocial. It isn't a sign of depression. It does
not call for medication. For introverts, to be alone with our
thoughts is as restorative as sleeping, as nourishing as eating.
Our motto: "I'm okay, you're okay—in small doses."
How many people are introverts? I performed exhaustive research
on this question, in the form of a quick Google search. The answer:
About 25 percent. Or: Just under half. Or—my favorite—"a
minority in the regular population but a majority in the gifted
population."
Are introverts misunderstood? Wildly. That, it appears, is our
lot in life. "It is very difficult for an extrovert to understand
an introvert," write the education experts Jill D. Burruss
and Lisa Kaenzig. (They are also the source of the quotation in
the previous paragraph.) Extroverts are easy for introverts to
understand, because extroverts spend so much of their time working
out who they are in voluble, and frequently inescapable, interaction
with other people. They are as inscrutable as puppy dogs. But
the street does not run both ways. Extroverts have little or no
grasp of introversion. They assume that company, especially their
own, is always welcome. They cannot imagine why someone would
need to be alone; indeed, they often take umbrage at the suggestion.
As often as I have tried to explain the matter to extroverts,
I have never sensed that any of them really understood. They listen
for a moment and then go back to barking and yipping.
Are introverts oppressed? I would have to say so. For one thing,
extroverts are overrepresented in politics, a profession in which
only the garrulous are really comfortable. Look at George W. Bush.
Look at Bill Clinton. They seem to come fully to life only around
other people. To think of the few introverts who did rise to the
top in politics—Calvin Coolidge, Richard Nixon—is
merely to drive home the point. With the possible exception of
Ronald Reagan, whose fabled aloofness and privateness were probably
signs of a deep introverted streak (many actors, I've read, are
introverts, and many introverts, when socializing, feel like actors),
introverts are not considered "naturals" in politics.
Extroverts therefore dominate public life. This is a pity. If
we introverts ran the world, it would no doubt be a calmer, saner,
more peaceful sort of place. As Coolidge is supposed to have said,
"Don't you know that four fifths of all our troubles in this
life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still?"
(He is also supposed to have said, "If you don't say anything,
you won't be called on to repeat it." The only thing a true
introvert dislikes more than talking about himself is repeating
himself.)
With their endless appetite for talk and attention, extroverts
also dominate social life, so they tend to set expectations. In
our extrovertist society, being outgoing is considered normal
and therefore desirable, a mark of happiness, confidence, leadership.
Extroverts are seen as bighearted, vibrant, warm, empathic. "People
person" is a compliment. Introverts are described with words
like "guarded," "loner," "reserved,"
"taciturn," "self-contained," "private"—narrow,
ungenerous words, words that suggest emotional parsimony and smallness
of personality. Female introverts, I suspect, must suffer especially.
In certain circles, particularly in the Midwest, a man can still
sometimes get away with being what they used to call a strong
and silent type; introverted women, lacking that alternative,
are even more likely than men to be perceived as timid, withdrawn,
haughty.
Are introverts arrogant? Hardly. I suppose this common misconception
has to do with our being more intelligent, more reflective, more
independent, more level-headed, more refined, and more sensitive
than extroverts. Also, it is probably due to our lack of small
talk, a lack that extroverts often mistake for disdain. We tend
to think before talking, whereas extroverts tend to think by talking,
which is why their meetings never last less than six hours. "Introverts,"
writes a perceptive fellow named Thomas P. Crouser, in an online
review of a recent book called Why Should Extroverts Make All
the Money? (I'm not making that up, either), "are driven
to distraction by the semi-internal dialogue extroverts tend to
conduct. Introverts don't outwardly complain, instead roll their
eyes and silently curse the darkness." Just so.
The worst of it is that extroverts have no idea of the torment
they put us through. Sometimes, as we gasp for air amid the fog
of their 98-percent-content-free talk, we wonder if extroverts
even bother to listen to themselves. Still, we endure stoically,
because the etiquette books—written, no doubt, by extroverts—regard
declining to banter as rude and gaps in conversation as awkward.
We can only dream that someday, when our condition is more widely
understood, when perhaps an Introverts' Rights movement has blossomed
and borne fruit, it will not be impolite to say "I'm an introvert.
You are a wonderful person and I like you. But now please shush."
How can I let the introvert in my life know that I support him
and respect his choice? First, recognize that it's not a choice.
It's not a lifestyle. It's an orientation.
Second, when you see an introvert lost in thought, don't say
"What's the matter?" or "Are you all right?"
A conversation with Jonathan Rauch, the author who—thanks
to an astonishingly popular essay in the March 2003 Atlantic—may
have unwittingly touched off an Introverts' Rights revolution
by Sage Stossel
Introverts of the World, Unite!
Most magazine articles do not, as a general rule, inspire impassioned
responses. But in 2003, when The Atlantic published a short essay
by correspondent Jonathan Rauch on the trials of introversion
in an extroverts' world, the reaction was overwhelming. Rauch
was inundated with more enthusiastic mail about the piece than
for anything else he'd ever written. And on The Atlantic's Web
site, it drew (and has continued to draw) more traffic than any
other piece we've posted.
"I am an introvert," Rauch declared in the piece. And
as such, he contended, he is a member of one of the "most
misunderstood and aggrieved groups in America, possibly the world."
By definition, he explained, introverts are those who find other
people's company tiring. Yet the uncomprehending extrovert majority
imposes its own gregarious expectations on extroverts and introverts
alike—compelling incessant socializing, enthusiastic party-going,
and easy shooting of the breeze as norms. Introverts, Rauch pointed
out—though an oppressed minority—comprise a significant
portion of the population. Their quiet, introspective ways, he
argued, should therefore be viewed not as a deviation from standard,
but as a different kind of normal.
He addressed extroverts, admonishing them to be more sensitive
to their introvert peers: after all, "someone you know, respect,
and interact with every day," he explained, "is an introvert,
and you are probably driving this person nuts." As for introverts,
he wrote, "we can only dream that someday, when our condition
is more widely understood, when perhaps an Introverts' Rights
movement has blossomed and borne fruit, it will not be impolite
to say, 'I'm an introvert.... Now please shush.'"
If the groundswell of support for these sentiments is any indication,
Rauch may soon find himself the unwitting figurehead for an Introverts'
Rights Revolution. We decided to have a few words with this author,
who has clearly tapped into something important.
Did anything in particular inspire you to write an article about
this? An especially trying plane ride seated next to an extrovert,
for example?
I don't think it was any specific incident. The idea was rolling
around in my head for a while. To some extent, it was the result
of being partnered with an extrovert and realizing that this was
a daily source of tension. So I started organizing my thoughts
on the subject. Another motivation was, basically, that I thought
it would be funny.
It's interesting that you've found it a source of tension to
be paired with an extrovert. I've read that introvert-extrovert
pairings work well because the person who doesn't like to make
small talk can just let the other person do it for them.
That's true. It does work very well in some situations. But for
an introvert it also makes for a constant—I guess you might
call it "brain pressure." That's a better phrase than
"tension," because tension implies conflict and it's
not that. It's just that my partner Michael's default mode of
being is to talk and interact all the time, whereas mine is to
talk as little as possible. We've been together since 1996 and
we've spent much of that time just learning how not to drive each
other completely insane. Part of my motivation for writing this
piece was to pass along some of what I've learned. I was also
hoping Michael would read it, which he did.
Did it help?
By the time the piece was published he'd probably heard it all
from me before. But it doesn't hurt to go on the record.
If he were a writer he could do the companion piece—"How
to Care for Your Extrovert."
Exactly. But of course my view, as I say in the article, is that
it's much easier for introverts to understand these things than
extroverts. Extroverts really have a hard time "getting"
it. And even when they do get it, they still have a hard time
modifying their behavior.
You wrote that for a long time you didn't even realize you were
an introvert. What caused it to finally dawn on you?
From about the age of eighteen or nineteen, when I went to college,
I realized that it was just not my idea of fun to party. In fact,
I couldn't see why anyone would want to—I get so monumentally
bored at parties. So I realized that I had this fundamental difference
with a lot of other people. I didn't put a name on it until a
few years ago when a friend of mine, who reads a lot of Jung,
informed me that he's an introvert and that, "by the way,
Jonathan, you're an introvert, too." He explained what that
means and suddenly a lightbulb went on and things fell into place.
Now that you're tuned into it, can you usually tell when you
meet someone whether or not they're also an introvert?
No. There's no introvert "gay-dar" that I can tell.
One reason is that a lot of introverts are actually very good
at being social. It just takes a lot of work for them. I'm like
that. I'm not great at small talk, but I can seem quite outgoing
for spells of up to an hour or so before I completely run out
of gas. So I have to kind of get to know someone before I can
figure out whether they're an introvert. Not that it takes all
that much getting to know. If you notice that someone's getting
tired out by a long conversation, they're probably an introvert.
But it's not a first impression kind of thing.
I was surprised to read in your article that it's not typical
for introverts to also be anxious or shy in social settings, because
I'm both.
I was wondering whether you were an introvert. When did you realize
that about yourself?
I'm not sure. I guess it probably hit me in seventh grade when
somebody told my older brother, "You know, Sage could be
popular if she talked more." Of course, he reported this
to me, and I started to brood over it.
That is so unjust. Isn't it?
Yeah—chattiness suddenly seemed like the key to social
success and happiness.
That story so sums up the kind of extrovert hegemony that can
make life miserable. I think it's particularly hard for girls
and women. "You'd be so much more popular if you'd talk more."
It seems to me that the world would be a much better place, and
that people would be much more rightly popular, if they talked
less. Because so little of what most people say is actually worth
hearing.
True. Although sometimes it's interesting to listen to other
people talk. It's too bad it's not more acceptable to go to a
party and just kind of soak things up.
Yeah. They should sell skybox seats at parties for people like
us.
You asked about shyness versus introversion. My limited reading
on the subject suggests that, psychologically speaking, they're
regarded as different things. That reflects my own experience;
I'm not particularly shy myself. To me, shyness implies a real
reluctance to be socially aggressive or assertive. It's very difficult
for shy people to put themselves out there if they need to. For
introverts, it's never easy to do, but it's more a matter of reluctance
to expend the energy, because it tires us out. That's what I feel
most strongly. If I have to go to a party and then a dinner afterwards,
I'm completely ruined for the evening. But if I'm called upon
to run a business meeting or something, I don't feel any reluctance
or anxiety about it. So, in my mind there's always been a fairly
clear distinction between introversion and shyness.
You also mention in the article that studies have shown that
introverts process information differently from other people.
Yeah, that's something I read back when I was reporting the piece.
I can't remember the details now, but it involved brain scans.
It sounds right to me that the process is different. When there's
a conversation flowing around me and everyone else is so quick
with their responses, I almost imagine that other people's brains
are endowed with some kind of fast-acting comment-generating engine.
Yeah, I marvel at Michael who can always somehow turn the conversation
right over effortlessly and keep it going even when what he says
is not necessarily profound or interesting. What he comes up with
is perfectly tuned to the sense and flow of the conversation.
But it's not words that are particularly intended to convey ideas
or mean things. It's words that socialize—that simply continue
the conversation. It's chit-chat. I have no gift for that. I have
to think about what to say next, and sometimes I can't think fast
enough and end up saying something stupid. Or sometimes I just
come up dry and the conversation kind of ends for while until
I can think of another topic. This is why it's work for me. It
takes positive cognition on my part. I think that's probably a
core introvert characteristic that you and I have in common and
which can probably be distinguished from shyness per se—that
small talk takes conscious effort and is very hard work. There's
nothing small about small talk if you're an introvert. But we're
good at big talk. Are you good at big talk?
If I get onto a topic I'm interested in and feel strongly about
then it's true that I can get animated and engaged. But I'm not
so good at chatting about things like the weather.
Right. The weather's not interesting. But once an introvert gets
on a subject that they know about or care about or that intrigues
them intellectually, the opposite often takes hold. They get passionately
engaged and turned on by the conversation. But it's not socializing
that's going on there. It's learning or teaching or analyzing,
which involves, I'm convinced, a whole different part of the brain
from the socializing part.
Do you ever wish you were an extrovert?
Not really. That may be because my "faking it" skills
are pretty good. But I do think a lot of us are tired of being
told that there's something wrong with us—of this lazy assumption
that if you're not an extrovert, there's something wrong with
you. I think my article may speak to people in part because of
its defiant message. It says, "No, I don't wish to be an
extrovert. Not everyone has to be one. And why don't you people
get it?"
Your article made me think of that book The Lonely Crowd by David
Riesman from the 1950s. He argued that the dominant economic model
of each era in a sense "creates"—or privileges—the
character type that's best suited to it. So, for example, in the
agricultural and industrial eras, what he called the "inner-directed"
type was best suited to getting work done and transmitting certain
moral and cultural values. And then, with the rise of a more consumer-oriented
economy, it became beneficial for people to be gregarious and
affable. So teachers started to care more about whether their
students were popular and cooperative than if they were interested
in the subject matter and doing well academically.
I've never thought about it in those terms. It's true that in
a lot of the social jobs that require leadership—whether
in politics or in corporations—being energized by dealing
with people all day long is a plus. And it's also probably true
that, in an urban corporate economic structure, those skills are
more important than in a rural peasant economy. But I wouldn't
say that it changes the character of the people particularly.
I do think that there's been, in the last ten years or so, a major
economic resurgence for introversion—the "geek"
economy. The prototypical geek is really good at thinking, has
superb powers of concentration (which tends to be an introvert
trait), and works very well independently. They're often pretty
awesomely brilliant people, and they're fairly defiant about being
geeks. They've turned this word "geek" into a term that's
almost romantic in some ways, and through the Silicon economy,
they've been massively innovative and economically important.
A lot of them are running circles around the extroverts who are
selling shoes. So I think part of what's happened lately is that
the digital economy is giving introverts a new place in the sun.
You've gotten more reader response to this article than for anything
else you've written. What do you think accounts for that?
Well, I can tell you that I never saw it coming. I thought I
wrote this almost for my own fun and so that I would have something
to hand people to get them to understand. Part of the problem
with being an introvert is that it's hard to explain yourself.
You can't say to your friends, "Hey guys, I'm an introvert,"
and have them know how to deal with you. So I thought it would
be pretty darn handy to have something on paper.
Then I got this overwhelming reaction in the mail. It's been
a bigger reaction than to anything else I've written. I think
it suggests that a lot of people have the same experiences you
and I do, and that they haven't had a name for it or a way of
understanding it. Having that is very valuable. It tells you how
to understand yourself and—maybe even more importantly—it
tells you that you're fine and that, in fact, a lot of the problem
is with the rest of the world.
People really do seem to be having a real "eureka"
reaction to this. At some level, it reminds me of what it's like
to discover that you're gay. Obviously there's no structural similarity
between introversion and homosexuality, but there is this sense
of realizing that you're different in a way that's very meaningful.
Understanding introversion as a concept kind of makes the pieces
fit together. A number of people have told me that they've Xeroxed
the article and given it to their friends, their families, their
significant others, and so on, as a communication device.
You jokingly talk about an Introverts' Rights Movement. It seems
as though, given the dramatic response to this article, there
must be a lot of people out there who are just now realizing that
they're introverts and that the dominant culture doesn't really
take their characteristics into account in terms of what it expects
of them.
Well, that's exactly right. Part of the thrill of this article
is that it seems to be helping introverts discover each other.
It never occurred to me when I wrote it that there would be so
many other people out there with whom this would resonate so strongly.
But one of the main points I see over and over again in the mail
I've been getting is, "I'm not alone! There are others like
me." This sense of empowerment because of not being alone
is very important to people. That in itself, to the extent that
that takes hold, would be a very important part of correcting
the introvert/extrovert imbalance.
Your article has also been one of the most popular pages on our
Web site. We posted it three years ago, and it still gets more
hits than practically anything else on the site.
Yes. The Internet is the perfect medium for introverts. You could
almost call it the Intronet. You know the old New Yorker cartoon
with a dog sitting at a computer saying to another dog, "On
the Internet, no one knows you're a dog." Well, on the Internet,
no one knows you're an introvert. So it's kind of a natural that
when The Atlantic put this piece online, introverts beat a path
to it; it's the ideal distribution mechanism by which introverts
can reach other introverts and spread the word.
Are you aware of anybody else writing about these things today?
I'm not. Some people who wrote in sent me some of their own writings
on the subject. But if there are other articles I haven't seen
them. We'll see over time.
So if you were to spearhead an Introverts' Rights movement what
would be some of the things you'd advocate?
Massive subsidies. I think people like us should have twice as
much Social Security.
I like that.
Yeah that's pretty good.
Maybe Greta Garbo could be the mascot.
Good idea. Though she may have just been shy. Did she really
say, "I vant to be alone"?
That's what I've heard.
I think that was a line from her movie The Grand Hotel, though,
in which case it was just her character who said that. But she
could still be the patron saint. Actually, my favorite line is
from Waiting for Godot. I can quote it to you exactly: "Don't
talk to me. Don't speak to me. Stay with me."
That's perfect.
To me those words sum up the introvert impulse. We love people—we're
not misanthropic for the most part. We just can't socialize with
them all the time. We want to hold their hand or hug them or just
sit quietly and read a book with them.
I was tongue-in-cheek about the introverts' rights movement,
but the main principle would just be that it should be as respectable
for introverts to be who they are socially as it is for extroverts.
We ought to be trying to make extroverts conscious and not uncomfortable
about the fact that we're here. Extroverts should understand that
if someone is being quiet it doesn't mean they're having a bad
time; it doesn't mean they're depressed; it doesn't mean they're
lonely or need psychiatric help or medication. A lot of the battle
is making the extrovert world more aware. The onus is on us to
do that. Maybe this article is a start. One thing you'll notice
about the article, by the way, is that it addresses extroverts.
I think that's very much the strategy; we need to tell the world
who we are. The first step is to understand who we are ourselves,
but the second step is to educate extroverts. This is stuff extroverts
need to know. They're driving us crazy. We need to tell them.
Some Characteristics of Introverts:
• Are territorial - desire private space and time
• Are happy to be alone - they can be lonely in a crowd
• Become drained around large groups of people; dislike
attending parties
• Need time alone to recharge
• Prefer to work on own rather than do group work
• Act cautiously in meeting people
• Are reserved, quiet and deliberate
• Do not enjoy being the center of attention
• Do not share private thoughts with just anyone
• Form a few deep attachments
• Think carefully before speaking (practice in my head before
I speak)
• See reflection as very important
• Concentrate well and deeply
• Become absorbed in thoughts and ideas
• Limit their interests but explore deeply
• Communicate best one-on-one
• Get agitated and irritated without enough time alone
Some Characteristics of Extraverts
• Are social - they need other people
• Demonstrate high energy and noise
• Communicate with excitement and enthusiasm with almost
anyone in the
vicinity
• Draw energy from people; love parties
• Are lonely and restless when not with people
• Establish multiple fluid relationships
• Engage in lots of activities and have many interest areas
• Have many best friends and talk to them for long periods
of time
• Are interested in external events not internal ones
• Prefer face-to-face verbal communication rather than written
communication
• Share personal information
(It must be remembered that, just as for giftedness, no one
list adequately captures the uniqueness of any individual but
serves as a beginning guide to recognizing and understanding behaviors.)
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